Frank Costanza:
“The tradition of Festivus begins with the Airing of Grievances. I got a lot of problems with you people! And now, you’re gonna hear about it. …”
Flavius Koczi was named Romanian male gymnast of the year for 2011.
He’s Mr. Twister on Floor.
Click PLAY or watch it on YouTube.
D-score: 6.6
E-score: 8.900
15.500 1st – European Champion
Not bad. Certainly one of the best routines in the world today. But watch what Flavius showed at the Gala in Belgium, without the constraints of FIG judges and rules.
Click PLAY or watch it on YouTube.
Better, I’d say. Note he removed both roll-outs.
Compare Flavius with one of the many young guns out of Japan, Kenzo Shirai.
Click PLAY or watch Kenzo on YouTube.
To me that’s no longer a “Floor Exercise”. Kenzo is doing as many twists as he can and as little else as possible. If that’s what FIG wants, why not simply use the Power Tumbling Rod Floor and name whomever does the most twists in 8 skills the winner?
UPDATE: Gerard in the comments has seen rules for young guys in Japan that ban on Floor:
• any front salto into a roll out (including arabian)
• double front (including arabian)
• double back with a twist
… That helps explain why Kenzo’s routine so overuses twisting for difficulty.
This is a Floor Exercise demonstrating a variety of qualities, not only twisting.
Click PLAY or watch the 1979 World Champion on YouTube.
A routine from over 30yrs ago on a rock hard Floor is ‘better’ than what we are seeing today. The FIG rules are not working, in my opinion.
Thomas was the first to popularize those roll-outs, by the way.
(via Full Twist)
_____ Check the comments. There are a surprising number who prefer modern Floor over the traditional “Floor Exercises” of the past.
24 comments ↓
Seriously? I have no idea what your arguments are based on… I watched Thomas’ routine and counted a total of ONE double somersault (And it was the easiest [C Value]). Whereas during the EF’s at the World Championships this year, a group of 8 gymnasts demonstrated such skills as the Kolyvanov, Hypolito, Tamayo, Double Double tucked/layed, Arabian Double Pike and the Ri Jong Song. In fact, Koczi was the only man to not have a double somersault in his routine.
Its not as though Kenzo is following suit; he is 15 years old and remains prohibited by the tough junior rules in Japan. Double somersaults with twists on Floor are BANNED for high school students! If you think FIG has ‘ruined’ Men’s floor, I think you are a tad out of date. I am a teenager and I can tell you firsthand that guys in modern day society do NOT want to do routines like Thomas’. It is so ignorant to say that lack of dance is destroying MAG; instead, I believe that reintroducing it WOULD. Our sport is already heavily lacking in numbers and I think that as the code encourages guys to do bigger and bigger tricks, it can only benefit our cause for publicity.
The fact of it is that the sport needs to evolve in order to stay alive and interesting. I personally HATE Thomas’ routine! I’m sure that’s just a result of my upbringing with the current system, though. However, I am near certain that my viewpoint epitomises the mindset of my generation… We will be the future ambassadors for the sport eventually and I therefore feel compelled to share my perspective. Floor is more exciting and interesting than ever; not only for spectators, but for gymnasts too. I have so much fun trying to add extra twists/somersaults into my routine and at the end of the day, that’s what is most important.
You can reject my opinion on the issue as much as you want, but please just give Kenzo a break! He did a quad twist at age 15! I could not be more excited to see what he will show us in the coming years. Bugger the choreography.
the floor in 1979 Worlds was an AAI wood spring floor. Not rock-hard and very similar to floors today.
What Gerard said. I couldn’t have said it any better.
I like the way FX is today. I see lots of variation in skills with a good balance between flipping and twisting. I guess its just an age/generation thing
I like it as well, I think it’s great that FX becomes more and more technical, tumbling-wise. I could only hope for it to become even more so, and that more multiple flips would be introduced as well.
I find Thomas’ routine more entertaining, and it actually has choreography without being dance-like. Most recently, 1996 had some pretty well done floor routines at the Olympics and even in 2000 some of the men were being creative.
Bravo Gerard!!!
This harping on roll-out skills is getting old. If you don’t like them don’t teach them and don’t do them.
I think too that Gerard brings up an important point as well. This is HIS generations gymnastics. They are the generation of the X-games and Tony Hawk. Who are we as old men and women to force our idea of “ideal” beauty on them? They are the ones actually doing the skills, and they are the ones who have to walk off the floor and be happy with what they did.
In 19th. C France, there was a big push between the Academy “Classical” painters and the new avant garde painters like the impressionists and post impressionists. How many of have heard of Boilly, Couture, Cabanel, or Cot? These were the greatest painters of their day, and yet how many have heard of Monet, Cezanne, Van Gogh, and Picasso?
Now in painting, a balance is being struck between the beautiful and the difficult. I think we are seeing the same thing occur in people like Kohei. Absolutely well done and beautiful.
But once again this is their gymnastics. Who are we to force our 1979 view of aesthetics on the youth of 2011???
I did not know that there were any restrictions for Japanese Juniors.
Where did you see that?
I was at the Japanese Junior Invitational and didn’t hear about it. … (That meet itself was probably FIG, though.)
— but following your logic, you’d agree there’s no reason to use the 40 x 40 Floor. Simply move the guys over to the Rod Floor and see who can do the most twists and saltos. You could get rid of the judges except to count.
That’s not what I want to see.
I’d be happy to post any of your opinions in support of the current routines and Code on the main page. Not many people read the comments.
Let me know if interested.
Rick
At 13 my floor routine had more difficulty than Thomas in 1979. As a gymnast and spectator, you want to do/see the most difficult and exciting skills. So saying to incorporate a the circle thing on 1 leg, a forward roll, back extension roll or a planche thats not even held from circles is “better” I don’t really get. Would you rather have Thomas second pass or a whip-tucked Thomas side pass then 2.5 punch full in the same amount of time? You want to see a double back or triple double?
I think Rick’s point has been missed, and as much as Gerard’s argument has some credibility – it is very narrow. Sure Thomas’ routine had one double sommersault…it was 1979 – everything develops over time…look at a 1980′s ATARI and what you’re playing with today Mr. Gerard, you see how most given things will advance?
On the same thread, ‘dance for gymnastics’ has advanced too. The majority of participants in the open-gym sessions around the country are male; parkour tricks, breaking, and more modern style of dance are being practiced (by boys) in these sessions, and I have seem male gymnasts perfecting these movements, giving them an artistic flair, with good form, nice lines, and clean finishes -some even using them as connectors in their competition routines. So like that old Atari, we have seen advances in movement too. Introducing a refined form of these ‘street’ styles, emphasis on REFINED, to the floor, may help bring a touch of artistry back – no?
I think what Rick was trying to show is that the artistry in the sport was more evident ‘back in the day’. ARTISTIC gymnastics – remember!?! There is no reason for that not to exist today, and that fact that it does only edges men’s floor even closer to power tumbling. If that is what the FIG, or the ‘youth of today’ would prefer – then give them a rod floor and let them go hell for leather.
On another note – a young elite WAG gymnast, in all her innocence, recently asked, “Why is he allowed to roll out when I have to stick every pass?” Interesting indeed….
@Rick,
1. I was given the high school rules via WWGym by a person I only know as ‘KAZU’. He wrote the following:
“Junior high school students in Japan (men, age 13~15) are not allowed to do any front sault into a roll out (including arabian), as well as double front (including arabian) and double back with a twist. Vaults with 1/1 turn in the first flight phase and round-off entry vaults with a twist before handspring fwd/back are all banned for them. And in HB, double front dismount, double back with a twist, and triple back dismounts are also banned.”
2. No, I would not agree with changing the Floor. It is STILL artistic; its just different to what you see (Besides, I believe that sport already exists.. Power tumbling?). I see Kohei pointing his toes in a Triple Double as far more artistic than anything Thomas did. Subjectivity is the most definite issue with anything involving ‘art’; no perspective is wrong. No matter what arguments you throw out, the code still encourages artistry through the means of finesse. Perhaps its not as much as a ‘performance’ as it once was, but who cares? I can’t believe any true Gymnastics fan would actually complain about guys doing huge skills. If you want to see a more entertaining representation of somersaulting, there are outlets for that (i.e. Cirque de Soleil). But this is a sport and therefore the primary goal should be to find the BEST gymnast… And that can only be done with the open-ended system. Let me ask you this: would you agree that the system was successful in determining the placings for this year’s Floor EF? If you agree, then the code is working! A balance of difficulty and execution is the only way to find a clear winner; its unbiased, unprejudiced and indisputable.
3. Sure, I don’t mind if you want to share my perspective on the main page. I would be happy to write up a legitimate article of sorts.
@Chris,
Sure… That’s kind of what I’m getting at? Today’s artistry is characterised by cleanliness in difficult tumbling elements. That’s just fantastic in my opinion. My point is that you can’t put a label for difficulty on such things as ‘originality’ and ‘dance movements’; it is SUBJECTIVE!!! So I’m all for gymnasts doing recognised ‘dance’ elements such as Flares, etc. because they are recognised by the D Score! And then, the artistry arises from having perfect form whilst doing these things.
Artistry is not lost in gymnastics; it is only lost to some. In my opinion, it is only lost to the ignorant. Picture the perfect gymnast… To me it is a person who is so beautifully intelligent that he/she is able to solve complex skills and make each sub-routine within that movement aesthetically pleasing. Take Kenzo, for example… I do not picture him as the perfect gymnast, but what I do see is a very smart human being. There is a reason nobody does quad twists… The intricacy of hitting each sub-element (i.e. running, the roundoff, the flick, etc.) within that skill is indescribably difficult. He did it cleanly and completed all 1440 degrees of the rotation and therefore I believe that he executed it in an artistic fashion. So what if he didn’t jump around like a moron in the corners? He kept himself calm and collected and hit a very difficult routine with a very good E Score. In my opinion, the E Score is in direct correlation with how artistic the routine was; the higher the better.
Super Gerard.
Email me when that’s ready.
Rick_McCharles@hotmail.com.
Overall, I quite like these rules for young guys:
As you say, it’s pretty amazing that any gymnast would end up doing quadruple twist mainly because he wasn’t allowed to roll-out or do advanced double somersaults.
Gerard makes an important point. In my eyes, right now, gymnastics is all about making things look as cool as possible. Kohei’s Kovacs, epic straight arm landings and straight arm running style is all evidence for this new gymnastics style. People around the world are now becoming inspired to add their own style to their sets without looking like fools.
As for artistry over difficulty, there are gymnasts everywhere that combine both, people complain that we don’t see it, but this is because it’s difficult and not many people have accomplished such a feel for their skills. Difficulty should be rewarded, why should a gymnast who is afraid to learn risky skills beat a gymnast who isn’t? If you are stopped by fear, it automatically makes you weaker than someone who doesn’t, such is the nature of life.
Kurt Thomas did some cool stuff that isn’t seen anymore, but really, big deal.
If you ask me, it’s all entertaining….from Thomas Gonzales to Zou Kai.
@ Gerard
I do not totally agree. No one is trying to discount from clean technique and finesse in the acrobatic skills, that should be a given, right?
If I understand it correctly, the ‘ignorant’ are not looking for a difficulty value to be added to the moronic skills in the corner. This is where I think you are missing the ‘artistic’ perspective the ‘ignorant’ are trying to preserve.
No one is asking the gymnast to ‘jump around like a moron,’ but merely show the discipline, cleanliness, focus, and strength that help define this sport and give us an interesting transition, DARE I say an inventive and unique transition that may set him apart, even above and beyond the herd…in my opinion there is nothing more moronic than some of the transitions we see on fx today.
The point of the ‘moron jumping around in the corner’ was to bring a fluidity to the routine; interesting connections above that off the lack luster efforts by many, but not all. Watch a handful of current fx routines and see the lack of ‘presence of body’ between passes – their skills may be impressive, no one is denying that, but the ‘artistry’ is gone when they half-heartedly chassez, or attemp a transitional step with zero virtuosity. Innovation defines this sport, and that should not be confined to acrobatic elements, innovation should seep through every facet of our sport.
There are countless options available; easy, artistic transitions – the rhythm of the tumbling pass does not have to end with a stick, it can continue on in so many different directions, and with so much flair and presence:
It’s exactly what the commentator says in this clip, ‘It’s the minute details that separate him from the field…’ Referring to Mogilny:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWZeU-cTzxU
I agree with your opinion on the exemplary technique and form as being artistic within itself, but I do not think you have your head around what ‘the ignorant’ are trying to defend.
more examples of innovative transitions that could, perhaps, be defined as artistic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWZeU-cTzxU
@Chris,
Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed response. Just to clarify, when I say ‘jumping around like a moron’ I was merely using it for the sake of hyperbole… Not maliciously. And trust me, I can understand what you are trying to defend! All I’m suggesting is that Floor should not be singled out for its lack of artistry. For example, there are 5 other apparatus in the men’s competition which are dubbed to be part of ‘Artistic Gymnastics’. If the ‘A’ represented in MAG is actually applicable to all events, then what is so artistic about the other 5 apparatus? To be more specific, how can a gymnast make vault look to be of an artistic nature? I believe that the answer lies in the execution of the skill – thereby making the E Score the only universally-applicable notion for artistry in the sport. If the two panels do their job correctly, then my version of what I believe to be artistry is indeed being satisfied.
If anything, I believe that the problem you have with the code is that the Element Group which is supposed to reside for corner transitions is not meeting a standard that you feel necessary. Sure that is important, but I mean is it really a big deal if somebody does an extremely intricate ground-Pommel series and then exits it by doing a handstand forward roll? I don’t think it matters at all. The key word is transition: getting from point A to point B in the most effective way possible. Sure contemporary gymnasts aren’t as graceful in doing so anymore, but I can still comfortably watch a Floor marathon without it bothering me at all. I think that everybody has their own style and as long as I can see that they are making an effort to put in a stag-leap or whatever, I see that an aspect of manly gracefulness is being defended (it does not have to be so dramatic like it was way-back-when).
And before anybody starts pointing the finger at the code AGAIN, they have implemented further penalties in recent years to encourage innovation. For instance, they introduced the rule that simple steps into corners incur a 0.1 deduction each time. There is really not much else that they can do without delving into the ‘dance movement’ side of things… Seriously, just watch this year’s World EF – it was spectacular! Eight out of Eight routines were hit! Despite the somewhat standardised and enforced cookie-cutter attempts at art from guys like Steve Legendre, at least he went out and did it. I would not punish him at all… You can tell by the ways a gymnast moves across the Floor whether or not they are confident in what they are doing and that to me is the standout feature of a good Floor worker.
And yes, exactly what Muramasa Gintoki said: it is the emphasis that gymnasts put on their skills which makes it artistic in nowadays. That to me is the modern take on innovation. Flavius’ version of art, for example, is his infamous inverted head-bop when he is concluding his Manna press to handstand. Although a simple example, it is, as you said, the minute details that separate gymnasts from the field. That is why Kohei Uchimura is the reigning World AA Champion and the 2011 Floor Champion. His innovation was a ‘G’ element; this was further enhanced by his confident stride across the Floor. To me, that is all the artistry Floor needs – he had nice roll styles, etc. so what’s to complain about?
I hear you, Gerard. For me, it’s realizing the floor ex. full potential – tumbling and transitions combined – a stag leap just will not cut it for me – considering what our talented artists could truly be capable of showing.
Okay okay, fair call. I’m currently working on my article so perhaps I can mention something along the lines of what you said. Cheers for your constructive criticism.
[...] I’m surprised how many coaches defended the current Code and FIG rules on Floor in the comments of this provocatively title post – FIG ruined Men’s Floor. [...]
I disagree that the routines of the 70s and 80s were better than Kenzo’s. Take any high caliber gymnast today and they could do the tumbling of that era in their sleep. I’d like to see more originality in todays gymnastics, but people like Kenzo and Uchimura are fine by me.
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